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Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

topic posted Fri, May 20, 2005 - 2:11 AM by  Topher
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This is a repost. PLEASE HELP.

Dear friends ,

Here is the link to the petition against the proposed Sempra coal
fired power plant that is planned to be located just outside Gerlach. It would be the largest coal-plant in the US, and it is the old dirty coal technology. It will essentially change the land out there forever if we don't act now and sign this petition!

The link will take you to the petition page which is part of a
very informative website that has been developed to inform the public about this coal plant, SIGN IT NOW!!

www.nevadacleanenergy.org/

Please pass this link on to your lists and anyone who can help stop this plant from going up...... Remember, the
plume from this plant would extend hundreds of miles into what is currently one of the most pristine areas in the continental US.

Here is a list of how it would effect the area:

The plant will release more than 50 dangerous pollutants, including arsenic, lead and mercury, into the air we breathe.

The power generated will be exported to Southern California, where the law prohibits this type of plant to be built.

Coal-fired plants are the nation’s largest source of mercury pollution, known to affect children’s learning abilities even with exposure to small amounts.

Clean alternatives are available that would cost the same and produce the same quantity of electricity.

The plant will consume 14.2 millions of gallons of scarce desert ground water every day—over 5 billion gallons a year—diverting water from plants and drinking holes relied upon by deer, elk and wild horses.

At more than twice the size of the Statue of Liberty, the plant’s 650-foot tall smoke stack will tower over the desert landscape.

The plant’s coal burner emissions would be equivalent to adding about two million cars to the roadways.

During the five years of power plant construction, an estimated 100-200 trucks and 800 workers will congest normally quiet roadways daily.


Thank you and long live the Black Rock Desert
posted by:
Topher
Kuwait
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  • Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

    Sun, May 22, 2005 - 8:41 PM
    "....Clean alternatives are available that would cost the same and produce the same quantity of electricity."

    such as_______??


    Rat
    • Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

      Sun, May 29, 2005 - 11:13 AM
      Clean, productive and cost effective alternatives may exist (ie tesla), but that doesn't matter in the light of Bush's new found enthusiasim for Nuclear Power and our longstanding fiegned dependancy on fossil fuels. Besides it isn't really the type of power plant but rather the location (and the high probability that its for Reno), that threaten both BRD and BRC. I feel that if we were really concerned with BRD that BRC wouldn't be there at all, and that it would be more transient or regional (might this have altered the PowerPlant location?). This won't stop me from signing the petition of course (or spreading the word), nor do I feel that BRC (even with all the burning), does more damage than a coal power plant would do, but it does do cummalative damage to the environment ...... Just thinking.
      • Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

        Sun, May 29, 2005 - 8:43 PM
        ...." nor do I feel that BRC (even with all the burning), does more damage than a coal power plant would do, but it does do cummalative damage to the environment ...... "

        I'm so glad to hear that someone else thinks about that. Not to mention the thousands of glowies and batteries that find their way into landfills from our week of joy.
        A little OT, but I just stumbled upon a very interesting site re greenhouse and global warming, or the lack thereof.
        mottsblog.blogspot.com/2004_1...ve.html

        As far as alternatives from Tesla, you'll have to educate me on his theories, since I'm clueless....

        Rat
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

          Sun, May 29, 2005 - 8:47 PM
          I'm wondering where the coal is coming from.

          If it is from coal mines in the US, wouldn't this be a better alternative that adding another user for Mideast oil?

          VBS
          • Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

            Sun, May 29, 2005 - 11:36 PM
            The same could be said for drilling in a small portion of the ANWR.... sure, it's not a perfect solution, but as for myself, I'd rather have a few disgruntled elk and reduce OPECs grip on us.
            I also saw mentioned somewhere re buying gas from Citgo when possible. Citgo is supposedly owned by Venezuela... and therefore most (some) of the profits are dedicated to providing social services to the people of Venezuela.
            Oh, that's the same country/democratically elected leader that defeated a CIA/Bush Admin sponsored coup attempt a few years back. Go finger.
            Not sure of the facts, so do your own research.

            Rat
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

              Mon, May 30, 2005 - 11:01 AM
              Got an email some time ago concerning large companies that SUPPOSEDLY do not import oil for the middle east.

              They were:

              Citgo
              Sunoco
              Conoco
              Sinclair
              BP/Phillips
              Hess
              ARCO

              "... sure, it's not a perfect solution, but as for myself, I'd rather have a few disgruntled elk and reduce OPECs grip on us."

              IMHO -- you can add a few disgruntled activist's to the list as well. Seems that many just enjoy waving red flags and screaming "Foul" -- but really have no REALISTIC solutions beyond what they read in the latest party pamphlet.

              VBS
              • Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

                Mon, May 30, 2005 - 12:00 PM
                The main bugaboo with ANWR is that even when pumping at full capacity, it would be a tiny part of the total oil consumption of the US. Adding 2% or 3% to the US oil reserved isn't going to do much.

                What needs to be done is for the govt to invest much larger amounts of money on reseraching alternative energy production, including reduced emission coal, photovoltaic, wind, etc. Why the govt? Economies of scale are holding back photovoltaic and wind production in a catch-22 scenario... it costs too much because it's low volume, but it's low volume because it costs too much.... If the photovoltaic production went up 10x, then the cost would drop a enough to make it competetive with traditional power plants in many, many applications.

                If we could invest several billion a year in alternative energy production research (<<< than the cost of securing oil supply lines, btw) we would speed things up several times over.. what would take 20 years at the current rate would be done in 5 or 10.

                Focussed research efforts are the way to go both in terms of overall cost and long term energy stability.
                • Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

                  Tue, May 31, 2005 - 8:01 AM
                  Or, alternatively, for oil companies to see the profit potential and stop thinking of them selves as oil companies and start think of themselves as energy companies.

                  Guess I'm in la-la land again.

                  Rat
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

                    Tue, May 31, 2005 - 10:44 AM
                    LOL -- Like that could ever happen. LOL.

                    Personally, I would like to see the fossil fuel (oil) systems that were converted FROM coal to be returned to it as the primary fuel.

                    Granted, burning coal would require aditional scrubbers to be installed to minimize the dangerous emissions, which are quite costly, but it seems that coal-mining could be handled SAFER and more efficiently now than it was in the past. Besides reducing the dependency on foreign oil, it would be a boost to the economies in several states resulting in fewer people on the welfare lists, higher tax revenues, and an overall increase in their 'quality' of life.

                    I guess that might make me an Isolationist. Just can't seem to grasp the concept of Feeding the world, Healing the world, Securing the world, and letting our own citizenry fend for themselves.
                    Every time i see the commercial about the Christian Children's Fund, I think about all the children in THIS country that don't have enough to eat or adequate medical care. Just pisses me off as I reach for the remote.

                    Rat -- you need more Apple Pie to live in la-la land...LOL.

                    VBS
                    • Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

                      Thu, June 2, 2005 - 8:22 PM
                      i am in aggreeance with you Very Bad

                      as for this plant. the web site for the plant says its got the latest technology going into it, one can hope that means good scrubbers and such. there is no mention of what technology actually goes into it so no one could really say what the equivalent emmissions would be.

                      It really does, as a number of people have pointed out in other ways strike me as more a concern with the aesthetic beauty of the area than the health of the area. in some ways tho not as bad this petition is kind of like back when people in newmexico where mailing our local congress person here in Az to say "NO DONT THIN OUT THE BRUSH AND TREES, that would hurt the environment" even as we had multiple fires burning multiple 100s of thousands of acres of land, putting all of that smoke and yuckiness into the world.

                      If the plant is really that bad an idea, considering the fact that (aside possibly from money being paid by the pwr company to nevada) there is little benefit to nevada to have it there, then nevada would/well/wouldhave disallow/ed its construction.

                      Just my $0.02
                      • Unsu...
                         

                        Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

                        Fri, June 3, 2005 - 12:40 PM
                        Just prior to retiring I was helping design a fluidized-bed coal-fired boiler system for generating power and production elements. The NEW scrubber systems are amazingly efficient, resulting in emissions FAR BELOW federal standards.

                        Being from NW Indiana, I am accustomed to the yucky black clouds hiding the sun...LOL.

                        VBS
                    • Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

                      Thu, June 2, 2005 - 8:47 PM
                      > Every time i see the commercial about the Christian
                      > Children's Fund, I think about all the children in THIS
                      > country that don't have enough to eat or
                      > adequate medical care.

                      and then, feeling bad, i get up and go volunteer, uh, i mean i pick up my check boo, uh i mean i campaign to change, uh...uh yeah this show sucks so
                      > I reach for the remote.

                      boo fucking hoo...
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

                    Wed, July 13, 2005 - 10:32 PM
                    Oil companies are some of the richest companies in the world, and the best able to invest in renewable energy development. It seems to me that they are waiting for their current investments to pan out before they switch to an alternate, which would drive their precious oil prices down. What they don't realize is that sooner or later the last remaining oil will be needed for medicine and other needs that people of the future will undoubtedly be willing to pay through the nose for. If the oil companies were to save as much of their current oil for later, when it will be worth $200/barrel, they could instead focus on the up and coming (eventually) renewable energy market. They could be the first to acquire the patents necessary in the development of future renewable energy resources. It seems they lack the foresight to make it happen. Money-grubbing bitches. ;)

                    Firelight
  • Abe
    Abe
    offline 0

    Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

    Fri, June 24, 2005 - 11:40 AM
    I have a soultion to building most new power plants, solar. I believe a strong growing trend will be rooftop solar electric and water, espically in the western US where we have so many sunny days. Simple green building practices of high insulation and radient floor heat installed at construction and solar coolers for homes will limit need for more power when houses are built this way rather than simple frame-stucco construction. But with any type of construction, solar hot water and electric are feasible. Panels are growing in efficency. Have the power company pay you for power. Cover your roof with panels, solar tiles and soon, solar paints. We have the power from the sun to change the way power is generated in the world. Just buy a panel!
    • Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

      Sat, June 25, 2005 - 8:38 AM
      Yeah..... if you look on the roofs of most any housing development built in the 70's and early 80's in Phoenix, you'll see all kinds of solar water and a few solar electric installations. Very few of which are still in use or still work.
      At anywhere from $4-10 dollars per watt for just the panels alone, and then adding the battery banks, grid tie-in, controllers, monitors, etc. it's just plain not affordable for 90% of the population.
      You'd have to do your own research, but it usually works out to at least a 20 year payoff vs good ole grid power just to break even.
      If Crocodile Jerry is reading this thread, perhaps he can shed more light (pun intended) on the situation.

      Rat
  • Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

    Sat, June 25, 2005 - 3:08 PM
    How can a desert be destroyed ?
    Destroyed and turned into what ?
    A desert land - a wasteland ? Its already there !!

    Tapan
    • Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

      Sat, June 25, 2005 - 9:41 PM
      I am not too upset about this issue. I would prefer it not to be there but Balck rock Desert is really no worse than anyplace else. it is just that nobody including Burners want power plants in thier back yard.

      Just to put it in perspective. Toast! the Arizona Regional Burn sets between two quite large coal fired power plants. One of which is just 15 miles away the other about 50 as the crow flys. These plants are at least 25 years old, if not older. Just one of them consumes 9000 tons of coal a day, under full load. There are also numerous native american artifacts and remnants of dwellings that are hundreds of years old in the area. Not to mention a wide variety of wild life including heards of Antelope and Dear. For those who have been to Toast and seen the area. Well, I rest my case.

      Gary
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

        Sun, June 26, 2005 - 1:02 AM
        Wouldn't have known they were there if you hadn't told me.
        • Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

          Sun, June 26, 2005 - 10:23 AM
          < Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.
          <Wouldn't have known they were there if you hadn't told me.

          That's my point. The emotional hype and scare tactics need to be put away and focus on the real effects this plant may have. If it is "state of the art technology", (and it will be to get the permits are granted), the actual mercury and other emissions into the air will be extremely low.

          On the other hand there is a long term threat that is real. That is the use of the water which will have to come from underground aquifers. The aquifers in the area are pretty large. Unfortunately so are the number of hot springs they feed and the riparian areas that are created by them. Continuous pumping by a high demand power plant and the increased demand by the new people in the area that work and support the plant is probably going to eventually dry those up. Personally I can live without hot springs, but the plant and animal life that depends on them cant.

          We as a nation are stuck. Right now for power generation Coal is King. As a nation we are not good about saving energy. If we were we wouldn't be leaving our computers and monitors on when they aren't being used. We also wouldn't still be using incandescent light bulbs. Switching over to the new style
          screw-in fluorescent bulbs will save you about 50 dollars in replacement bulbs and energy over the life of just one new style bulb. That is just one bulb in your house! One 60 watt standard light bulb is good for only 750 hours. A replacement fluorescent will last 8000 hours and use *at least* 75 percent LESS power per bulb to create the same amount of light. Folks it takes only about $60.00 to $70.00 to replace every bulb in your house with these bulbs if you buy them in bulk packs. If you replace all of them and left them on all the time you would probably still use less power than four 60 watt bulbs. If you just changed out just ten of the bulbs you normally use all the time you'd still save $500.00 in energy over the life of those bulbs! I don't think you can get a better return on your investment in the stock market! Why people are not using these bulbs is beyond me. The only place you cant use these is where the light is on a dimmer! If just 50 percent of the country went to these new style bulbs in their homes the energy savings would be very significant. Maybe then we could curtail building a new power plant or two.

          Gary
          • Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

            Wed, July 13, 2005 - 8:36 PM
            Actually, they do make them...although a tad pricey...shopping around may provide better deals.
            www.metaefficient.com/metaeff...20v.html

            Another alternative that's even more efficient are the new LED replacement bulbs that are starting to appear. Although not nearly as bright, they'd still be useful for areas that don't need a full 60w equivalent... ie...the light above your exterior doors, those multiple bathroom vanity lights, etc. etc. You'll find a link to them underneath the CF light in the above link.

            Ahhhh.... Froogle is your friend!
            www.google.com/froogle

            Rat
            • Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

              Wed, July 20, 2005 - 12:05 AM
              THe Beauty of the Multi Bulb LEDs is that they last long and since you havce about 10 to 12 they tend to burn out in stages, one or two bulbs, Less heat easier to focus and 2-10 watts! "WHY do we not have cheap home, and vehicle bulb set replacements in the stores" is my worry.
          • Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

            Wed, July 13, 2005 - 10:41 PM
            That brings up a good point. Someone did a study on how much energy would be saved if all Christmas tree lights were changed from normal bulbs to LED’s. The energy saved could run 200,000 homes for 2 years. I think it was on NPR.

            Firelight ;)
            • Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

              Fri, July 15, 2005 - 11:21 AM
              On a similar (well, not really) vein.... there's currently a show on cable (I forget the channel) called 30 Days... it's done by the same guy who did "Supersize Me"... anyway, the most recent episode took two consumption-oriented city folk and sent them to live off-the-grid for 30 days at Dancing Rabbit Intentional Community (google them).... anyway, they did some cheesy little study of their energy use prior to their stay at Dancing Rabbit... they figured that if everyone used as much energy as they did, that we'd need 12 Earths to supply it all!
              Check it out if ya get a chance....

              Rat
  • Re: Black Rock Desert to be destroyed.

    Tue, July 19, 2005 - 6:36 PM
    My biggest question, first and foremost is does this directly affect BM? And I don't mean just looking at some ugly smokestack on the horizon.

    If it doesn't, well...this is one of the most desolate places on earth and would not have been a concern to ANY of you before 1990(the first year BM took place). Mind you this is not an argument for a coal plant, but the state of Nevada has had many, many 'dirty' activities long before you and I were born; mining(silver, gold and minerals--yes your crystals you wrap in hemp string, too), army testing, nuclear testing, cattle ranching, nuclear waste disposal, navy training(Top Gun--I worked in that area years ago where they blow up land targets with real missiles, quite a sight), gambling, legal prostitution--I'm sorry what is so sacred about this area??(Even the 10,000 gallon per hour thrust powered land speed records were set in the Black Rock Desert a few years ago)

    I don't mean to sound like a conservative, but this is BS. Burning Man is about excess, MUCHO mucho excess(or I suppose none of you came in a motor home or moving van that gets single-digit gas mileage or attended a theme camp where they had generators running 24/7; the people who want to set up this coal plant feel they need catch up to us then stinking up the air at the rate of 2 million cars a year as was said like we've been stinking up the air for the last 14 years in the BRC). We spend all these million of dollars, all those manhours, all that machine and technology energy to set up an elaborate getogether started by some rich San Francisco partygoers. BM is not about conservation, get real! It has nothing to do with environmentalism. I'm glad everyone is as careful as they are about garbage and not dumping at BM, but guess what the best thing for the BRC and the environment is--if we weren't there at all, DUHH!! The desert doesn't NEEDS to be left alone at best.

    It's funny too some of the other comments I've seen here about convincing the oil or mining companies of this or that. Anyone driven through West Texas, you know all those thousands of windmills out there just like in Palm Springs, guess who owns those? ENRON. You know who is a major manufacturer of solar Panels? ARCO. Or how GM quietly bought up all the trolley cars in the mid-1900s and shut them down, or how the major oil and gas companies have had most of the patents to renewable energy usage in cars since the late 60s. Or how these foreign interventions push the price per barrel for us way, way over $60. Or more recently how the current admin. and the oil companies are pushing for hydrogen powered cars, why? Because petro power is where hydrogen power comes from at the plant. You think these people are STUPID or need to be convinced of anything? Ask yourself this then, are you really against big business or genuinely want to do something that contributes? You'd better bring something better to the table than your gut feeling if you want to argue energy or the environment. These people are a smarter than you or I and that's why they have all the power and money, (I suggest reading 'The Prize' if you haven't). There ain't no Easter Bunny either.

    There's shiteloads of oil beneath California, enough reserves to significantly reduce our foreign dependance which can't be dug up because of environmental laws. Up to 15% of our total energy usage could be powered by Biodiesel,...right now. What YOU need to understand is that there doesn't have to be some technological push until we can start using less energy or cleaner energy, all the technology is in place right now. Don't think that you're doing some good deed by "being against this or that" and eating organic food, though. Understand that we live in an oil-based economy(ever notice how inflation goes up every time the ppb goes up??) and mining plays a huge role as well(or I suppose the copper and steel in your Honda was picked up off the ground by elves). Yeah, who wants to look at a ugly drill rig or pump jack or tailings pile though, right? If you need to power Southern California with 'harmful' technology, wouldn't you want it in Nevada where the population is sparse anyway?? The funniest part of the argument against this is about the 100-200 trucks and 800 workers. I worked in the Northern half of Nevada for nine months, you think the locals would be appreciative of shutting down a mine in their area and denying them the chance to make $20 an hour just so the air is a little cleaner, get real. They'd hate us 'hippies' even more who show up in their state for week, party and leave, then tell them they can't sustain a decent living in a scarce job economy.

    Hypocrites.

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